聽 Podcast 學雇主品牌┃Employer Branding Podcast - Measuring Employer Branding Impact, with Kenty Brumant of Thermo Fisher Scientific
國外的雇主品牌已經發展很久了，台灣是這兩年開始對此議題感興趣，尤其關於怎麼衡量雇主品牌成效以及要橫跨哪些部門合作，一直都是大家討論的重點。
Employer Branding Podcast 是我閒暇時候，應該是說中文節目都聽完沒有其他可以聽時會點開的節目，這個節目會廣邀歐洲各家負責雇主品牌的主管或是工作者來分享他們在實務上怎麼操作雇主品牌以及預計達成的效益。但這是一家雇主品牌顧問公司 Link Humans 做的節目，所以不免俗的會聽到一些吹捧的內容，這部分略過就好，哈哈哈。
以下內容是透過 Fireflies.ai 協助轉錄逐字稿，以及 ChatGPT 幫忙簡要講者的回應，並透過 Google Translate 中翻英的內容。英文很好的建議直接點擊下方 Podcast 連結收聽，如果想要盡快獲取資訊的，可以看各個工具協助整理出來的重點唷！
讓我們一起在雇主品牌之路成長吧！
How long have you worked in this role in an employer brand now?
I’ve been working in the field of employer branding for a little over four years at Thermo Fisher. Before that, I was on the agency side, also focusing on employer branding, so that adds up to about eight years in this field. Prior to that, my background was in traditional marketing, particularly in marketing financial products and services. I’ve been in the broader field of marketing for approximately 15 years. I have two marketing degrees from university, and marketing and advertising have always been my focus. I made the transition to employer branding about eight or nine years ago, and I’ve spent the last four years with Thermo Fisher in this role.
你在雇主品牌領域工作多久了？
我在 Thermo Fisher 從事雇主品牌領域工作已有四年多了。 在那之前，我在代理商工作，也專注於雇主品牌，所以在這個領域加起來大約有八年的時間。 在此之前，我的背景是傳統行銷，特別是金融產品和服務的行銷。我在更廣泛的行銷領域工作了大約 15 年。 我擁有兩個大學行銷學位，行銷和廣告一直是我的重點。 大約八、九年前，我開始轉向雇主品牌，過去四年我一直在 Thermo Fisher 擔任這項職務。
When and how did you start measuring the results, success, or impact of employer brand at Thermo Fisher?
We began measuring the success and impact of our employer brand (EB) at Thermo Fisher from the moment we launched our EB or employer value proposition. Over time, we’ve become more sophisticated in our approach, shifting towards more advanced metrics such as career site conversion and social media engagement. Additionally, we analyze data points from our internal Employee Insight Survey (EIS) and other sources. This allows us to connect the dots between external and internal perspectives, recognizing the importance of our employees as advocates.
With a global workforce of over 100,000 employees, we conduct an annual internal survey that provides valuable insights. From an employer brand perspective, we focus on areas such as internal mobility. So, while we initiated measurement efforts a couple of years ago, we’ve progressively become more data-driven. We now closely examine specific data metrics related to career site conversion and other key areas, in addition to internal data collected through surveys and HR interactions.
您何時以及如何開始衡量 Thermo Fisher 雇主品牌的成果、成功或影響？
從我們推出 EB 或雇主價值主張的那一刻起，我們就開始衡量 Thermo Fisher 雇主品牌 (EB) 的成功和影響力。 隨著時間的推移，我們的方法變得更加複雜，轉向更高級的指標，例如職涯網站轉換率和社群媒體參與度。此外，我們還分析來自內部員工洞察調查 (EIS) 和其他來源的數據點。 這使我們能夠將外部和內部觀點聯繫起來，並認識到員工作為倡導者的重要性。
我們在全球擁有超過 10 萬名員工，每年都會進行一次內部調查，提供有價值的見解。 從雇主品牌的角度來看，我們關注內部流動性等領域。 因此，雖然我們幾年前就開始了衡量工作，但我們已經逐漸變得更加數據驅動。 除了透過調查和人力資源互動收集的內部數據外，我們現在還仔細檢查與職業網站轉換和其他關鍵領域相關的具體數據指標。
It seems like you have been on a journey of measuring. What stage of maturity would you say you are currently at?
We began structured measurement of our employer brand around 2019 when we started collaborating with Link Humans. Since then, we’ve observed significant progress in various aspects we focused on in our campaigns and editorial calendar, such as diversity and inclusion (DNI) and workplace wellness. Notably, there has been a substantial increase in candidate engagement and online conversations over the past few years, reflecting the evolution of our employer brand.
In terms of maturity, on a scale from one to ten, I’d place us at around seven to eight. While there’s always room for improvement, we are firmly committed to a data-driven approach. One way we gauge the performance of our employer brand is through independent awards, not just ones we actively participate in.
To sum it up, we initiated our measurement efforts back in 2019, taking a holistic approach. We consider various touchpoints to inform our content calendar, campaigns, and talent marketing strategies.
聽起來您好像已經踏上了測量之旅。 您認為您現在的成熟度處於什麼水平？
2019 年左右，當我們開始與 Link Humans 合作時，我們開始對雇主品牌進行結構化衡量。 從那時起，我們在活動和編輯日曆中關注的各個方面都取得了重大進展，例如多元化和包容性 (DNI) 以及工作場所健康。 值得注意的是，在過去幾年中，候選人的參與度和線上對話大幅增加，反映了我們雇主品牌的演變。
就成熟度而言，按照從一到十的等級，我認為我們的成熟度約為七到八。 雖然總是有改進的空間，但我們堅定地致力於數據驅動的方法。 我們衡量雇主品牌表現的一種方法是透過獨立獎項，而不僅僅是我們積極參與的獎項。
總而言之，我們早在 2019 年就開始了衡量工作，採取了整體方法。 我們考慮各種接觸點來為我們的內容日曆、活動和人才行銷策略提供資訊。
Have you seen any patterns or anything that stood out to you from 2019 to, let’s say, 2023? Any obvious things have happened?
From 2019 to 2023, there have been some notable trends and developments that we’ve observed. Firstly, the pandemic accelerated discussions and changes in the job market, particularly regarding flexible and remote work arrangements and a heightened focus on mental health. Although we had already included remote and flexible working options in our strategy before COVID, these topics gained even more importance during this period.
Secondly, we’ve witnessed a significant emphasis on ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) and CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility). Many individuals now seek employment with organizations whose values align with their personal beliefs, whether related to environmental sustainability, community involvement, diversity and inclusion, and more. We’ve seen an increase in discussions and interest in ESG and CSR, which aligns with our long-term strategy in this area.
Lastly, candidate experience has remained a consistent focus. It’s not just about what candidates can offer us; it’s also about what we can provide to them in return. This two-way perspective extends throughout the entire recruitment process, from interviews and applications to various touchpoints. Despite the challenges, the talent market remains highly competitive, making candidate experience a crucial aspect to consider.
從 2019 年到 2023 年，您是否發現了任何讓您印象深刻的模式或事物？ 有什麼明顯的事情發生了嗎？
從 2019 年到 2023 年，我們觀察到了一些值得注意的趨勢和發展。 首先，疫情加速了就業市場的討論和變化，特別是在彈性和遠距工作安排以及對心理健康的高度關注方面。 儘管在新冠疫情爆發之前，我們已經將遠端和靈活的工作選項納入我們的策略中，但這些主題在此期間變得更加重要。
其次，我們看到了對 ESG（環境、社會和治理）和 CSR（企業社會責任）的高度重視。 現在，許多人都在尋求與其個人信念相符的組織就業，無論是與環境永續性、社區參與、多元化和包容性等相關的組織。 我們看到對 ESG 和 CSR 的討論和興趣增加，這符合我們在該領域的長期策略。
最後，候選人的經歷仍然是一個持續關注的焦點。 這不僅關乎候選人能為我們提供什麼；還關乎候選人能為我們提供什麼。 這也關係到我們能為他們提供什麼作為回報。 這種雙向視角貫穿整個招募流程，從面試、申請到各種接觸點。 儘管面臨挑戰，人才市場仍然競爭激烈，使得候選人的體驗成為需要考慮的重要面向。
Are there any particular metrics that tend to get the most traction within your team, within talent acquisition or even further beyond?
From an internal perspective, we take our Employee Insight Survey (EIS) very seriously. We pay close attention to the results and use them to identify action items and generate action reports annually. These surveys help us gauge various aspects, such as career progression and other highlighted issues. Across the organization, from the CEO down, we prioritize addressing these issues and implementing action plans to improve the scores and make tangible improvements externally.
Externally, one of the metrics that stands out and receives significant attention is career site traffic, especially in terms of returning visitors versus new visitors. While job-related pages naturally receive a lot of traffic, we also closely monitor visits to content pages unrelated to job applications. This is particularly important from an employer brand perspective rather than just recruitment marketing. We focus on the amount of time candidates spend on our site, reading blogs, exploring content pages, and engaging with our culture and stories. So, in summary, traffic to content pages, as opposed to job-related pages, is a metric that currently carries the most weight for us in evaluating our employer brand.
是否有任何特定指標在您的團隊、人才招募甚至其他方面最受關注？
從內部角度來看，我們非常重視員工洞察力調查 (EIS)。 我們密切關注結果，並利用它們來確定行動項目並每年產生行動報告。 這些調查幫助我們衡量各個方面，例如職業發展和其他突出問題。 在整個組織中，從執行長向下，我們優先考慮解決這些問題並實施行動計劃，以提高分數並在外部做出切實的改進。
從外部來看，最引人注目並受到廣泛關注的指標之一是職業網站流量，特別是在回訪者與新訪客之間。 雖然與工作相關的頁面自然會收到大量流量，但我們也密切監控與工作申請無關的內容頁面的訪問。 從雇主品牌的角度來看，這一點尤其重要，而不僅僅是招募行銷。 我們關注候選人在我們的網站上花費的時間、閱讀部落格、探索內容頁面以及參與我們的文化和故事。 因此，總而言之，內容頁面的流量（而不是與工作相關的頁面）是目前我們在評估雇主品牌時最重要的指標。
And when you are reporting internally about all these metrics, a who does it go to first? Is it up the ladder or is it sideways as well? And also how do you go about presenting it? Is it internal, let’s say quarterly meetings or do you send decks around or newsletters?
Internally, we have a diverse group of stakeholders to whom we report these metrics. The employer brand team is part of the Talent Acquisition and Talent Management department, which falls under the broader HR umbrella. We report our findings through various channels, including Quarterly Business Reviews (QBRs), internal newsletters, and town hall meetings.
The way we present this information varies depending on the audience. We customize our presentations to suit the leadership team as well as the general workforce. We actively communicate and share insights about employer brand with different teams, such as Talent Acquisition leaders, HR, and Corporate Communications. This is because ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) and CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility) initiatives are company-wide efforts, not limited to just the employer brand but also part of our corporate brand.
We collaborate closely with our Tier Business Partners who work directly with various business units. Our aim is to ensure that employer brand information doesn’t stay within our team but reaches the business stakeholders. These partners then disseminate the information to the different business groups they work with.
To promote a sense of ownership and involvement in our employer brand across the organization, we include a call to action in our communication. We provide the business groups with practical suggestions on how they can contribute to and support our employer brand, whether it’s through online engagement, leaving reviews, sharing stories, or encouraging colleagues to participate. This approach ensures that everyone understands that our employer brand is a collective effort, involving all of us, not just the employer brand team.
當您在內部報告所有這些指標時，請先向誰報告？ 是在梯子上還是在側面？ 您如何展示它？ 是內部會議，例如季度會議，還是發送投影片或時事通訊？
在內部，我們有不同的利害關係人群體，我們向他們報告這些指標。 雇主品牌團隊隸屬於人才招募和人才管理部門，屬於更廣泛的人力資源範疇。 我們透過各種管道報告我們的調查結果，包括季度業務評論 (QBR)、內部通訊和市政廳會議。
我們呈現此資訊的方式因受眾而異。 我們客製化簡報以適合領導團隊以及普通員工。 我們與人才招募領導、人力資源和企業傳播等不同團隊積極溝通和分享雇主品牌的見解。 這是因為 ESG（環境、社會和治理）和 CSR（企業社會責任）舉措是全公司範圍內的努力，不僅限於雇主品牌，也是我們企業品牌的一部分。
我們與直接與各個業務部門合作的一級業務合作夥伴密切合作。 我們的目標是確保雇主品牌訊息不會停留在我們的團隊內部，而是到達業務利害關係人。 然後，這些合作夥伴將訊息傳播給與他們合作的不同業務團隊。
為了在整個組織內提升雇主品牌的主人翁意識和參與感，我們在溝通中呼籲採取行動。 我們為業務團體提供實用建議，幫助他們如何為我們的雇主品牌做出貢獻和支持，無論是透過線上參與、留下評論、分享故事或鼓勵同事參與。 這種方法確保每個人都明白我們的雇主品牌是集體努力的成果，涉及我們所有人，而不僅僅是雇主品牌團隊。
And which parts of the business would you say are most receptive to this? I’m thinking for our viewers here, if they want to do something similar, who should they start talking to internally?
When it comes to building an employer brand, Talent Acquisition is an obvious place to start, but it’s usually a given. Another excellent starting point is the Communications and PR teams. They are often very open to collaboration because they understand that the employer brand and corporate brand are closely linked. We often share, reuse, and repurpose content together, even if our immediate goals differ. Their focus may be on consumer products and services, but it’s essential to recognize that customers can also be colleagues, and vice versa. This collaboration touches various touchpoints.
Corporate Communication and PR departments are solid starting points for employer branding initiatives. Additionally, consider teams responsible for learning and development. They might be part of HR, Talent Acquisition, or separate units. Highlighting learning and development as a benefit can resonate well today, and these teams are often receptive. Talent Management and Corporate Communications are also receptive groups to engage with in your employer branding efforts.
您認為企業的哪些部分最容易接受這一點？ 我在為我們的觀眾思考，如果他們想做類似的事情，他們應該開始在內部與誰交談？
在建立雇主品牌方面，人才招募顯然是一個起點，但這通常是必然的。 另一個很好的起點是傳播和公關團隊。 他們往往對合作非常開放，因為他們知道雇主品牌和企業品牌是緊密相連的。 我們經常一起分享、重複使用和重新利用內容，即使我們的直接目標不同。 他們的重點可能是消費品和服務，但必須認識到客戶也可以是同事，反之亦然。 此次合作涉及多個接觸點。
企業傳播和公關部門是雇主品牌計畫的堅實起點。 此外，請考慮負責學習和發展的團隊。 他們可能屬於人力資源部門、人才招募部門或獨立部門。 強調學習和發展作為一種好處在今天可以引起很好的共鳴，而且這些團隊通常很容易接受。 人才管理和企業傳播部門也是參與雇主品牌建立工作的接待小組。
How useful or interesting is it for you to look at competitors, both business competitors and talent competitors? Is that something you’re looking at or are you more focused on yourselves?
We consider both aspects when it comes to our competitors. Firstly, we use competitive information to benchmark ourselves against others in the industry. Secondly, we recognize that we’re often competing for the same talent pool as many competitors. The extent to which we focus on competitive information varies. In scientific roles, our competitors may be other pharmaceutical and biotech companies. However, in digital or data science roles, our competition could extend to tech companies as well. It depends on the specific role or group we’re targeting to attract. So, yes, we do take competitive information into account as part of our strategy.
對您來說，觀察競爭對手（包括業務競爭對手和人才競爭對手）有多有用或有趣？ 這是你正在關注的事情還是你更關注自己？
當談到我們的競爭對手時，我們會考慮兩個方面。 首先，我們利用競爭資訊將自己與業內其他公司進行比較。 其次，我們認識到我們經常與許多競爭對手爭奪相同的人才庫。 我們對競爭訊息的關注程度各不相同。 在科學角色中，我們的競爭對手可能是其他製藥和生技公司。 然而，在數位或數據科學角色中，我們的競爭也可能擴展到科技公司。 這取決於我們要吸引的特定角色或群體。 所以，是的，我們確實將競爭資訊納入我們策略的一部分。
How would you describe the impact of having data to support and drive the case for employer brands sort of inside the organization? Because I can imagine that there will be people inside your company who actually don’t know what employer brand is. That tends to be the case everywhere.
We ensure our input is valued by collaborating with our Tier Business Partners. These partners attend leadership meetings in various business groups like R&D and sales. We work closely with their leaders to share essential information. We rely on data to measure our strengths, weaknesses, and opportunities, shaping our strategy. We don’t make decisions in isolation but instead aim to understand what resonates with different audiences.
An example of how data guides our decisions is when we needed to attract data scientists and digital talent. We noticed that these niche professionals weren’t actively engaged on job boards or traditional social media platforms. Instead, they were having conversations on platforms like Stack Overflow. This data-driven insight prompted us to optimize our channel strategy and invest in building our brand presence on Stack Overflow. We created a company page there because that’s where our target audience was.
The business approached us with the challenge of attracting data scientists and digital talent, and we used data to guide our recommendations. Traditional advertising channels didn’t reach this passive audience; they were more active on platforms like GitHub and Stack Overflow. By presenting this data to the business, they supported our approach by allocating budget to promote our value proposition, “tech with purpose,” tailored to tech, data science, and digital talent.
您如何描述在組織內部使用數據來支持和推動雇主品牌案例的影響？ 因為我可以想像，你們公司內部會有人其實不知道什麼是雇主品牌。 到處都是這種情況。
我們透過與我們的一級業務合作夥伴合作，確保我們的意見得到重視。 這些合作夥伴參加研發和銷售等各個業務部門的領導會議。 我們與他們的領導人密切合作，分享重要訊息。 我們依靠數據來衡量我們的優勢、劣勢和機會，從而製定我們的策略。 我們不會孤立地做出決定，而是旨在了解哪些內容能引起不同受眾的共鳴。
數據如何指導我們決策的一個例子是當我們需要吸引數據科學家和數位人才時。 我們注意到這些利基專業人士並沒有積極參與求職委員會或傳統社群媒體平台。 相反，他們在 Stack Overflow 等平台上進行對話。 這種數據驅動的洞察促使我們優化通路策略，並投資在 Stack Overflow 上建立我們的品牌形象。 我們在那裡創建了一個公司頁面，因為那是我們的目標受眾所在的地方。
該企業向我們提出了吸引資料科學家和數位人才的挑戰，我們使用數據來指導我們的建議。 傳統的廣告管道無法接觸到這些被動的受眾； 他們在 GitHub 和 Stack Overflow 等平台上更加活躍。 透過向企業提供這些數據，他們透過分配預算來支持我們的方法，以促進我們的價值主張，“有目的的技術”，專為技術、數據科學和數位人才量身定制。
And in terms of the future, what does it hold for Thermo Fisher employer brands in general and specifically for measurement? Will it evolve even further?
In the near future, we’ll keep a strong focus on Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DNI) and early talent acquisition. We’ve seen success in these areas, particularly in the US, and plan to expand these efforts to the EMEA and APAC regions, taking local sensitivities and cultural differences into account. DNI and early talent are top priorities from an employer brand perspective.
We’ll also continue using data to guide our storytelling strategy. Our collaboration with the corporate team will deepen to ensure alignment, especially in areas like ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) and CSR (Corporate Social Responsibility), where our colleagues actively engage.
From a measurement perspective, we aim to become even more detailed in assessing candidate experience, potentially using AI to gauge sentiments in real-time. Additionally, we’ll focus on colleague advocacy, exploring ways to measure the earned media value they bring, considering our substantial workforce of over 100,000 colleagues. These are our areas of focus for the short to medium term.
就未來而言，賽默飛世爾雇主品牌在整體和具體的測量上有何意義？ 它會進一步發展嗎？
在不久的將來，我們將重點放在多元化、公平性和包容性 (DNI) 以及早期人才獲取。 我們在這些領域（尤其是美國）取得了成功，並計劃將這些努力擴展到歐洲、中東和非洲和亞太地區，同時考慮到當地的敏感度和文化差異。 從雇主品牌的角度來看，DNI 和早期人才是重中之重。
我們也將繼續使用數據來指導我們的說故事策略。 我們與企業團隊的合作將深化，以確保一致性，特別是在我們的同事積極參與的 ESG（環境、社會和治理）和 CSR（企業社會責任）等領域。
從測量的角度來看，我們的目標是更詳細地評估候選人的體驗，可能使用人工智慧來即時評估情緒。 此外，考慮到我們擁有超過 10 萬名同事，我們將專注於同事宣傳，探索衡量他們所帶來的贏得媒體價值的方法。 這些是我們中短期的重點領域。
What are your top tips or one or two top tips for our viewers today? Where should they start their measurement journeys?
When it comes to social media, focus on more than just clicks and impressions. Start measuring the actual topics people are talking about, their conversations, and the teams involved. While clicks and impressions are valuable metrics, digging deeper into the data by examining the specific topics and discussions can provide better insights.
Another often overlooked metric in employer branding, but essential, is the time candidates spend on your website. The longer they stay, the more likely they are to engage with job recommendations, apply for positions, learn about your culture, and gather information. Consider measuring the time spent on your site or on specific content pages, especially at the top of the recruitment funnel. It’s a valuable place to start for understanding candidate engagement.
您今天為我們的觀眾提供的重要提示或一兩個重要提示是什麼？ 他們應該從哪裡開始測量之旅？
當談到社群媒體時，不僅僅要關注點擊量和展示量。 開始衡量人們正在談論的實際主題、他們的對話以及所涉及的團隊。 雖然點擊次數和展示次數是有價值的指標，但透過檢查特定主題和討論來深入挖掘資料可以提供更好的見解。
雇主品牌建立中另一個經常被忽視但至關重要的指標是候選人在您的網站上花費的時間。 他們停留的時間越長，就越有可能接受工作推薦、申請職位、了解您的文化並收集資訊。 考慮衡量在您的網站或特定內容頁面上花費的時間，尤其是在招募管道的頂部。 這是了解候選人參與度的一個有價值的起點。
